Facebook Faceoff

I've been having a very interesting series of discussions on Marshall's Facebook lately with Meg and one of her friends, Sean. I wanted to post some excerpts before they disappear into wall-land forever.

This is what started it all:

Sean wrote
at 8:27pm September 29th, 2005
how can a person with such good taste in musica have such bad taste in politics, its sad. i love you anyways.

Meg wrote
at 12:01am September 30th, 2005
I chose to be Republican because that is my only real choice out of the two parties...if I had a REAL choice I would be Libertarian...so. I love you too...why dont' we ever hang out ?
Meg

Sean wrote
at 2:53pm October 2nd, 2005
The only Real choise, Is no choice,both parties are corrupt its just that the Democrats have a stronger history of favoring working class people and civil rights, which are the back bones a democracy.

Meg wrote
at 3:34pm October 2nd, 2005I love how I didn't even mention politics and there is a battle on my page!!! Thanx Sean...Always giving me crap...Well, I, of course, can't let that go without a come back...
If democrats are the backbone of society than we have some serious osteoporosis.
Hearts,
Meg

Sean wrote
at 8:44pm October 2nd, 2005
I didnt say that democrats are the back bone, i said that they sympathize with them a heck of alot more than the republican party.Oh, and the Republican Party are very proud about their philosophy on OutSourcing of American jobs- they say it helps the economy well if thats the truth we should be in a economic Boom! Another thing, this administration( And Congress) hasnt proposed one bill that has helped the middle class or poor, Not One. They only protect their own, the top 1%(wealth wise).

[This is where I hopped in]

I wrote
at 3:31am October 3rd, 2005
I'll weigh in on the fight that Meg didn't start, participate in, or finish ;-)

1) The backbone of democracy is not to favor the working class. The backbone of democracy is to favor no one moreso than anyone else except the majority. And even in doing so, democracy is designed to protect the rights of the minority.

2) Administrations (being members of the Executive branch) don't often propose legislation.

3) I find it hard to believe that no legislation proposed by any Republican in Congress in the last (how long were you talking about? Congress runs on a different electoral schedule than the Oval Office) has benefited anyone but the wealthiest 1% of the population. What, in your mind, would satisfy the category of beneficial to middle or lower class Americans? I won't try to refute this in abstract, though I'm sure I could.

4) One's "taste" in music has no bearing on one's political persuasion, I hope to God.

5) I strongly encourage you to avoid political affiliation. It will make your vote, and, in turn, your voice much stronger. I promise. I'm a Republican. Would I lie to you? (hint: rhetorical question)

Meg wrote
at 11:54am October 3rd, 2005
BOYS!!! Alright..well, as a poli sci major (and a novice at that), I would like to point out that SEAN is making rather large and vague accusations without even saying a single thing that isn't a soundbit from CNN or something...so...let's hear something originial and possibly true...And seeing as I am not partaking in this...I have nothing else to say...:)
Meg

Sean wrote
at 8:33pm October 3rd, 2005
1.) i just had to ask , Adam, to be my " friend" in order to defend what i was saying- which i think is humorously ironic. 2.) Yes, I know the executive branch doesnt propose bills, but they can And Do put pressure on their party to get Passed, What they want.
3.) Maybe my accusations are large but i think OutSourcing American jobs is an important issue not only economically, and socially as well.
4.) I think republicans should wake up and realize how bad this adminstration is, oh did you hear Tom Delay- has been got for insider trading, the whole batch is rotten, from the top down. And from their failed policies - have affected many people for the worse.
5.) I appreciate Meg, allowing us this arena to debate these issues, even if she didnt want to , and I am sorry to have started this , but open discussions are very democratic.

Meg wrote
at 1:55am October 6th, 2005
Liberals do suck SEAN.... All they do is bitch and moan and make up things to raise taxes and pretend that they are making a difference. Take Johnson for example. How many programs did he make? How many were successful? How much $$$ did he waste fixing nothing? They make programs and then they don't take the time to make them work...I don't want a bullshit response to this about war or military spending either...because that is a boring fight...so hit me with an original....thanx
meg

Sean wrote
at 3:50pm October 6th, 2005
all i have to say is, No Child Left Behind ACT, need i say more...

Meg wrote
at 5:43pm October 6th, 2005
No Child Left Behind is lame...but I don't see any other recent reforms that have not been equally as lame...Assessments are a part of educational life and a lot of teachers don't have any business teaching (AHUM...FHS)...lol...Anyways. At least they are attempting to hold teachers accountable, though they are going about it totally the wrong way and not being reflective of how much parents need to partake in education- though many parents at FHS were a little too involved if you ask me...So...education sucks and is what I would consider an impossible fix...liberals and republicans alike have failed to fix it. So...that is not really a good argument either.
Meg

[Well, they started talking about education, and as you may or may not know, that's my breaking point...]

I wrote
at 8:47pm October 6th, 2005
And while they both continue to fail on the political (aka public) front, private schools are sidestepping a vast majority of the American public schools in competition for placement at selective colleges, virtually flawless graduation rates, much higher test scores, etc. The public school students who can compete almost always do so of their own accord, assisted by active parents and a handful of diamond-in-the-rough teachers sprinkled conservatively throughout their academic careers. What gives here? Is it that "rich" kids are just inherently smarter, or can afford to "buy" their educations? Come on, now. You can't buy a brain. What you can do is have access to better teachers. How does that happen? Offer more money to the applicant pool, increasing competition and turnover to better qualified candidates. How does that happen? Well, you can go the government incentive route, but the government can't afford to do what needs to be done. My suggestion: school vouchers. Get public schools competing with private schools for government funding, and public schools will feel suddenly feel the burning desire to compete. Capitalism really isn't a bad thing, boys and girls. Peoples' money is attached to their minds and their hearts. To convince them to part from it, you have to try to win over both moreso than the next guy. This competition naturally raises the bar in any industry it touches.

PS - Education is the silver bullet.

[followed by...]

I wrote
at 9:00pm October 6th, 2005
See if you can contribute to this "conversation" without using any of the following words, names, or phrases:

Liberal
Conservative
Democrat
Republican
Bush (President Bush is ok, or just the President will suffice)
John Kerry (spoils of war, my friends)
propoganda (the word)
propoganda (this includes any and all broad, sweeping references to any current military engagements, the "administration", any individual "scandals" occuring within the federal government (ala Tom Delay), or anything which could be the name of a campaign platform category header (military, economy, homeland security, foreign/domestic affairs, etc.) unless accompanied by at least two descriptive supporting elements...)

Warning: This might force some of you to understand what you're talking about. Don't worry. It doesn't hurt.

Sean wrote
at 10:57pm October 6th, 2005
Tell me how many people benefited from Bush's Drug Bill? Probably only a handful of corporate cronies that's who. I know drugs costs are at an all time high and health care is rising also. Not to mention the administration could make it legal to acquire cheap drugs from Canada but that would be too sensible. This administration has favored corporate interests above all Americans. I dont even want to mention roll backs on enviromental policies.It feels 90 today , that doesnt seem natural. B/c it's not ! I would like you to tell me 1 policy that has benfited a good number of Americans, just one. Besides Faith based initiatives , for that could be a good program.

Sean wrote
at 11:00pm October 6th, 2005
I am sorry Adam i didnt follow your little rules. I guess i am just not that clever, I'll leave the tough work to you.

I wrote
at 12:38am October 7th, 2005
You followed the rules pretty well, except you didn't say President Bush, and that's an important rule ;-) But let's talk about beneficial policies. Since you brought it up, we'll start with the President's "drug bill", by which I assume you're refering to the Medicare bill passed in 2003. It would be difficult to name one person who has benefited from the new policies outlined in this bill, since the benefits don't kick in until January 2006, as stated in the bill. When they do, though, we'll be able to name millions of beneficiaries. Here's how: Starting in January, new low-cost prescription options will allow seniors with no or average drug coverage to cut their drug costs by half or more. For catastrophic coverage, Medicare will cover 95% of all prescription costs after seniors spend $3,600 of their own money each year. The new Medicare will also help retired seniors pay the costs of medical coverage from former employers. I think this is going to be a big hit for people like my father who are bleeding financially-tight pensions from 9/11-struck companies to pay for health care instead of enjoying their retirement in peace. But the big new benefit of Medicare will be for limited-means seniors, who will no longer have to pay any more than a $5 copay for prescription drugs, and over 95% of drug costs will be covered by the federal government.

That sounds beneficial to me. I realize many of you latch on to what your party's got to say to define your political "ideas". You need to understand WHY they're saying what they're saying, though. In this case, Democrats are indeed expressing concern over the new Medicare bill. But their concern is that the plethora of options available to seniors will be too confusing. People also complain that electronic ballots will be too confusing. I say get over it.

Since that was kind of long, and I don't want Meg to have a heart attack, I'll just outline a few more policy initiatives I feel are helping people, but I'm not going to explain why. I'm sure it'll all come out eventually.

The President's Jobs and Growth package has given much-needed tax relief to 90% of small business owners in this country who pay taxes on the individual and not the commercial/corporate level. This is highly stimulating to the economy.

The President has proposed several initiatives geared toward homeowners and families wishing to own their first homes. See the American Dream Downpayment Act and the Self-Help Homeownership Opportunity Program (SHOP).

In the style of Enron, Tyco, et al, corporate accountability has become an important issue for EVERY American. Believe me, the kind of financial fraud we're talking about here can negatively effect everybody from the top down. The President proposed a "Ten-Point Plan to Improve Corporate Responsibility and Protect America's Shareholders", and the SEC adopted and implemented all 10.

The President is looking ahead economically speaking. We as a nation have been trying to hold onto outdated or outdating jobs like a family pet. The thing is, nobody short of God himself can stop the world from progressing, and if we're going to stay competitive in the international market, we're going to have to progress with it. The President's "Jobs for the 21st Century" initiative proposes more then $250 million for community colleges (like Marshall's) to train workers in industries that are creating the most new jobs, as well as funding for secondary education programs to prepare students for the jobs of the 21st century. As far as the "outsourcing" of these dying jobs you mentioned a few days ago, Sean, the President's Trade Adjustment Assistance program (which he signed an expansion for in 2003) provides $1.1 billion in FY2005 to cover wage differences and health care costs for displaced workers when production or labor has been shipped overseas while they adjust to their new jobs.

The President is funding research in hydrogen and fuel-cell technology to the tune of over a bilion dollars, wihch will be spread over 28 institutions of academia, industry, and national laboratory.

You mentioned the faith-based initiatives, an element of this administration I'm incredibly proud to have supported. I don't even need to discuss how this is beneficial to millions. This has been a strongly bipartisan effort in Washington.

Look, I'm tired, and I haven't even touched on national security, foreign affairs, energy, or the environment. It's not that these are weak areas.... it's that I can't type anymore tonight.

Now, who wants to argue policy with me?

I wrote
at 12:47am October 7th, 2005
Crap.... I forgot to address the Canada thing. See, the problem with legal reimportation from Canada is that the FDA can't guarantee the safety of the drugs that are coming back since they're outside its comprehensive regulatory net. Canadian officials cite the same problem when the express their distaste for the idea (which is really because they aren't producing the drugs, so they're not making any money on the exports.) So besides the fact that Canada doesn't want it and the US thinks it's a danger to anyone taking prescription drugs, sounds like a great idea to me. (Until then, I'd remind you that it IS possible to go to Canada right now and bring back personal prescriptions if you're careful, just like it's possible to bring back personal "prescriptions" of the green leafy kind. It's cheaper now than it would be if it were legalized, with the taxation and whatnot.... The choice is yours, America.)

Meg wrote
at 5:53pm October 7th, 2005
Now I have huge amounts of stuff on my wall...thanx a lot...people are trying to educate you now...poor Sean
Meg


Meg wrote
at 6:05pm October 7th, 2005
Oh...and Adam kicked your ass...cuz he actually looks deeper into things than the CNN news channel...you should try that sometime...ahhh...

Sean wrote
at 7:09pm today
You and Adam , maybe all conservatives i dunno, are beautiful with words and stats and weave great agruments, but the problem with you all, is you dont deal with reality. Your so stuck on theory that you cant see the problems in your own back yard.To republicans and maybe all politicians, The means justifies the ends, We go to war based on faulty intelligence, down right lies and manipulations which should be a crime, but 9/11 happened so all critical thought just went out the window. I am not going into the details of why this war was wrong i am just saying the means do not justify the ends. If you start something on a questionable foundation its likely to fall. And the arrogance that the president has is unpresidential and unbecoming of a person in such a prestigious position. "Mission Accomplished" and all that , what bullshit. If it was accomplished then what are we doing over there, Peacekeeping?? Please.

Meg wrote
at 9:53pm today
The TRUTH...After years of coverups on boths parties ends, it is very difficult for me to even imagine that the truth could be found in today's world. Because of the over-globalization, we are now forced to fake it openly and not discuss the real heart and details of any matters anymore...we have to save face to the world. I honestly believe that the government is corrupt, but I don't think one elected official was the cause of this nor do iI believe that we should be putting our livelihoods closer intwined with such a fate. True freedom would be a lack of laws establishing such freedom...it should just be there. If there is no longer a truth, is there a freedom? It is something to ponder tonight while you watch CNN...There is no way that anyone is really telling the truth because no one speaks it or hears it...They shout and protest a world that they don't even understand...this is for both sides. What is the truth?

I wrote
at 10:52pm today
I speak the truth. I don't just *know* about the world. I go out into the world intent to learn about it. I've learned what every basic government must provide its citizens, I've learned what "amenities" can be provided to a people, given the peoples' willingness and consent to taxation to provide common ("public") goods. I've learned some of the problems that have arisen and continue to arise in democratic society (where the peoples' will truly is law, and there is nothing to stop the people from willing themselves into bad situations, or worse, to stop them from willing at all, as I believe we're facing today on many levels.) It is exactly this kind of ongoing debate we've been having that should be batted across every dinner table, tossed around every water cooler, and (this is for all you Marshall students who are skimming over this even as we speak, likely ignoring all the "boring" stuff) ESPECIALLY tossed around on every college campus in this country. When you allow yourself to flow into a "mainstream" political machine, all the intricacies of your voice in particular are surrendered to the "corruption" of which you all complain. Your individuality, the very heart of this and any democracy, is forfeited in favor of a cookie-cutter candidate system prone to corruption by the sheer ignorance of the masses. Sean, it hasn't mattered to me what your arguments have been at all. It has only mattered that in my rebuttals, I've convinced you to do some research of your own, even if all it did was strengthen your convictions. People, this goes way beyond your average "get out and vote" campaigns that seem to be directed at our generation election after election. I'm trying to convince you to participate in the society you're cohabiting. I don't mean turn on Fox News, CNN, or MSNBC and let them tell you how you're participating. I mean you, the demos in democracy. The one voice who must speak his mind so that he may harmonize with others and conflict with still others until, in chorus, we form one great nation. With my voice, I will add "under God".

I wrote
at 10:55pm today
I think you mean the ends don't justify the means...

Obviously this is still ongoing. It's fun. It's... well... it's just fun. Feel free to read over it, or, of course, you could ignore it, thus proving me exactly right ;-).

I worked hard tonight, and I was paid well for it. I only had two tables, but they both said it was the best night out they've ever had, one of the tables got six chef specials (iron chef type deal) and lots of wine, and they both made me feel very good about taking care of them with their wallets. Yay for that. I'm not typing anymore, so have a lovely evening. I'm out.